Chauffe Coeur Rhum

[Mark]

Christine Cooper is an acquaintance of mine. She is the importer of some of the finest French spirits it has been my pleasure to review.
Her rhums are bottled in France but originate in Martinique. An e-mail to Christine will result in all legal documents being provided for the suspicious consumer. There are strict French laws regarding AOC's and all doubt should be removed.
She is planning to submit her rhums for the 2008 M of R competition. Try them for yourself and taste for yourself why I rave about them!

[Edward Hamilton]

Please have Christine contact me because I am very confused if we are talking about the same Coeur de Chauffe rums. The one that has me baffled is the one with Appellation Rhum Controllee on the label. I have asked in Martinique and none of the producers will admit that they are selling to the bottler in France but I'm always willing to expand my horizons and learn about new spirits.

[christine]

I came accross your Forum a couple of times in the past months and noticed that you were questionning or researching the origin of one of the products I represent in the US, the Rums Chauffe Coeur Martinique Agricole. The brand has been created half a century ago by the respectable Martayrol SA in France, who is producer, negociant and "eleveur" of Calvados, Armagnac, Cognac, Martinique Rums and other French eaux de vie.
Martayrol used to buy from a couple of small producers in Martinique and bring into France small bulk quantities of wonderful Rums Agricole which bear the AOC Rhums Martinique Agricole; they have always aged and blended the Rums Brun in their own cellars, developing a consistent house style over the years. But due to the small size of their purchases and due to the consolidations of the Maisons de Rhums in Martinique, a kind of monopoly, it soon became almost impossible for them to buy it direct from the Martinique and the only solution now is to buy it from a couple of selected negociants in France.
The quality and the house style have not changed however, because the Rhums are still aged and blended by the 2 brothers, owners and master distillers of Martayrol.
All Rums Chauffe Coeur sold in the US are always accompanied by the Certificate of Origin Martinique Agricole; I'm enclosing a copy of such certificate for one of our recent sale to our importer in Chicago.
Since being introduced in the US, Chauffe Coeur Rums have won many awards : Highest Recommendation by Paul Pacult of the Spirit Journal, Top 50 Best Spirits and Top 50 Best Buy Spirits in the Wine Enthusiast.

[Edward Hamilton]

As a number of people have asked me, why do Chauffe Coeur rums claim the Appellation Rhum Controllee and not the AOC mark used by the rhum agricole distillers on Martinique. I have been unable to find anything about the Appellation Rhum Controllee.

[Rum Runner]

The Martayrol website (http://www.martayrol.com/) claims that their Chauffe Coeur line of spirits carries the AOC designation. The Chauffe Coeur rum label clearly does not show this. Apellation Rhum Controlee is meaningless in any legal sense as far as I can tell. I wonder if the certificate Christine writes of is an INAO certificate? Claiming "Origin Martinique Agricole" simply means "made in Martinique". It does not mean AOC "Rhum Agricole". This label is very ambiguous at best and begs for clarification. My dear Christine can you help here. Simply put, is it or is it not AOC Rhum Agricole????

[Mark]

Hi Rum Runner,
My buddy has a beautiful home on Vieques. I used to enjoy the quiet beaches on the Marine base.
There are ways to say something and there are ways to say something.
Your attempt is off-putting and doesn't deserve a response.

[Rum Runner]

Hi Rum Runner,
My buddy has a beautiful home on Vieques. I used to enjoy the quiet beaches on the Marine base.
There are ways to say something and there are ways to say something.
Your attempt is off-putting and doesn't deserve a response.

Dear Mark . Glad to hear that you have visited and enjoyed Vieques. I agree it's a beautiful place.

Given that I have seen people in the trade refer to this product as "Rhum Agricole" I think my question very fair. I have spent more than 20 years in the wine trade in different capacities and have a modicum of knowledge regarding the byzantine rules and regulations of AOC. I am not impuning Christines' integrity or the quality of the product she represents. I am simply looking for clarification on the label and the product. If in the process I have somehow offended your sensibility, I apologize. For wherever are my manners? Can I be more genteel than that? I am sure Christine can speak for herself, should she choose.
Regards.

[Mark]

Of course Christine can speak for herself and I hope she will. But this is my thread and I feel responsible. If you had finished your reply with "This label is very ambiguous, at best, and begs for clarification". Your point would have been fair and well taken. But to finish your reply with "My Dear Christine can you help here. Simply put, is it or is it not AOC Rhum Agricole????" is superfluous and not "genteel" to be sure.

[Rum Runner]

Dear Mark. Since Christine weighed in on this thread I make no apology for addressing her directly. In fact, I think my final question regarding whether Chauffe Coeur is AOC Rhum Agricole is at the heart (no pun intended) of the matter here. I see the rest of my post as superfluous. If the Administrator of this forum feels my posts to be spurious, then he is free to admonish me. I stand by my question and position respectfully. Is Chauffe Coeur Blanc and/or Brun an AOC "Rhum Agricole " as defined by current AOC designation? On the face of it, I would think that Milady Cooper could provide a satisfactory response , and we can all go on about the business of heralding all that is good about Martinique Rhum and AOC Martinique Rhum Agricole. I await a response from you (and) or Christine with much anticipation.
Regards

[Matusalem]

I'm not taking sides here but think both of you could observe some things (which you likely have but aren't necessarily saying so).

The first is I think Rum Runner has a very valid point. O.K. so he cut to the chase and made it less possible to keep replying without answering the actual question directly. Could it have been worded more friendly - yes I'm sure it could. Would it have achieved the desired direct answer - probably not. The lack of response since that time is probably the best indication as to what the true answer is.

As is indicated you probably have your answer already Rum Runner. Second to that, I'm sure we are all aware of some of the spirit industry *speak* (not limited to rum by any means). Which basically amounts to inquiries are only answered to a threshold point of sensitivity. Again I think what hasn't been said tells us what we needed to know.

FWIW, Mark, that industry *speak* tends to make some of us less cordial and more or less straight to the point. Not out of a lack of courtesy but rather a lack of wishing to go back and forth several thousand times without a legitimate or complete answer. Unless christine has something vital to add here, I think Rum Runner has achieved what we hoped to learn.

Peace be with both of you.

[Edward Hamilton]

I have not heard anything from CC Spirits, the importer, or Christine on the questions posed in the previous posts. The claim that Chauffe Coeur Martinique Rhum Agricole is indeed AOC rhum agricole from Martinique is being investigated by CODERUM, the governing body of the Martinique Rhum Distillers. In France it would be illegal to claim Martinique Rhum Agricole on a label if it wasn't AOC rhum agricole from Martinique, but these rums are only sold in the US.

I have never questioned the quality of these products and hope to learn why Chauffe Coeur doesn't use the AOC designation if in fact they are AOC rhum from Martinique instead of the Appellation Rhum Controlle, a control body that seems to exist only on the labels of these rhums.

[Rum Runner]

Your points are well taken Matusalem. I couldn't agree more, nor have said it better.


I'm not taking sides here but think both of you could observe some things (which you likely have but aren't necessarily saying so).

[Mark]

Under the lamp this rhum exhibits a glorious brandy-like appearance, flawless clarity. Upon uncorking a honeyed/sherry aroma wafts up from my copita planting a smile on my kisser. Additional air contact stimulates other layers of aroma; fruitcake, cane and almond joy candy. Oh baby. The palate entry is grassy, rich and long; at midpalate the cocoa sensation is soon overtaken by honey and butter cream. The finish is bitter-sweet and opulent. A world-class rhum that I'd be happy to serve to anyone at anytime. Bravo for another distinguished spirit from the cellars of the brothers Martayrol.

Frankly Ed I'm bewildered, with all the back and forth, that you have yet to try Christine's outstanding line of rhums.
Or have you?

[Matusalem]

I've tried two, I'd be quite surprised if Ed hasn't tried any of the product. The best point that Ed made was that the quality was NOT in question. I bought a bottle reasonably priced via BevMo quite a ways back.

Speaking of back and forth...I think we get the picture as far as your position on the product as well as your friendship with Christine. At the same time it would be nice if someone would address the simple question Ed posed. I'll be 100% honest with you. As a long time consumer, based on the way this is going, I'm not sure what to make of this discussion in terms of my commitment to additional bottles.

Imagine if you were trying to sell me a new car and I kept asking you why there was no estimated mileage information and you kept responding to my inquiry by reassuring me about the leather interior, the strength of the motor, the sound system and GPS that the vehicle came mounted with etc. After a period of time, I'd be forced to draw my own conclusion and assume that the Hummer you were trying to sell me must not have good mileage standards. Surely you can see that's where this discussion is going - or no?

In case it was lost in the shuffle here's the question quoted once again:
As a number of people have asked me, why do Chauffe Coeur rums claim the Appellation Rhum Controllee and not the AOC mark used by the rhum agricole distillers on Martinique. I have been unable to find anything about the Appellation Rhum Controllee.

[Mark]

I can't imagine trying to sell you anything.
Let's wait and let Ed speak for himself.
Ok the quality is not in question but you will not purchase another bottle because it's label is misleading?
What did you think about the taste? Does it compare favorably to you to similar offerings from La Favorite and Neisson?
If the label is repaired would you recommend this rum to a friend?

[Rum Runner]

An e-mail to Christine will result in all legal documents being provided for the suspicious consumer. There are strict French laws regarding AOC's and all doubt should be removed.

Christine has not made her email available and no documents have shown up here to support the AOC claim.

AOC regulations are indeed very strict. A visit to the INAO (AOC's parent body) website reveals that "Apellation Rhum Controlee" does not exist. Martayrols use of this term and "Martinique Agricole" is not only misleading, but in fact unlawful.

Martinique fought long and hard to obtain their AOC, and has every right to see it defended.

Why the good brothers at Martayrol have choosen to "tart up" their rum label with mis-leading and unlawful marketing wordplay instead of letting the quality of the product speak for itself is a mystery to me.

[Mark]

It's a mystery to me as well.
Christine has sent and disclosed all her documentation to Ed, privately.
Let's wait and see if anything unlawful has indeed been perpetrated.
In the meantime have you tried the rhum?
What do you think about it's taste?
Does it compare favorably to you to similar offerings from La Favorite and Neisson?
If the label is repaired would you recommend this rhum to a friend?

[Mark]

P.S. If you're in the mood e-mail Christine and make your point and ask your questions.
ccspirits@aol.com

[Rum Runner]

It's a mystery to me as well.
Christine has sent and disclosed all her documentation to Ed, privately.
Let's wait and see if anything unlawful has indeed been perpetrated.
In the meantime have you tried the rhum?
What do you think about it's taste?
Does it compare favorably to you to similar offerings from La Favorite and Neisson?
If the label is repaired would you recommend this rhum to a friend?

Sadly, the rum is not sold here in Puerto Rico and I have not found an internet source who would ship it here. I have never questioned the quality of the product, only its' labeling and provenance as it regards to the defense of AOC Martinique Rhum Agricole.

[Rum Runner]

P.S. If you're in the mood e-mail Christine and make your point and ask your questions.
ccspirits@aol.com

Thanks for her email...I shall drop her a line. By the way, I notice that Martayrol have dropped the Martinique Agricole rums from their website.

[Mark]

go to www.martayrol.com
click on produits
under Alcools brun
Rhums Vieux
the "Chauffe Coeur" Rhums are listed

I'm not sure and that is no excuse but I think this matter is a mystery to Christine, as well.
Now RR, you're not a young man, whatever that means, when you write her and "cut to the chase" be friendly if you don't receive the desired direct answer so be it.

[Matusalem]

I can't imagine trying to sell you anything.
Let's wait and let Ed speak for himself.
Ok the quality is not in question but you will not purchase another bottle because it's label is misleading?
What did you think about the taste? Does it compare favorably to you to similar offerings from La Favorite and Neisson?
If the label is repaired would you recommend this rum to a friend?I think you've missed the point entirely. My purpose for attending this forum is to share my experiences with other rum enthusiasts and at the same time learn as much as I can. That would include learning an honest answer to an honest question.

To clarify something, I found the product interesting, it wasn't a glass of cognac, but I buy brandy if I want to drink brandy + I don't have any special lamp to hold products up to.

Would I recommend the product to others. That depends entirely on what I perceive the friend's tastes or intentions to be. Many of my friends tend to gravitate towards sweeter molasses based rums and haven't developed the sort of appreciation for the straight to the cane characteristics of agricole. Barbancourt is about as far in that direction they swing.

Again to reiterate, it wasn't the product that sort of soured my outlook. This is simply advice from an old dog throwing a bone. Ignoring and talking around that sort of question as if it went unheard or is irrelevant can create a perception far more damaging than "whether or not the product tastes exceptional" or "what about the sticker and initials on the label being corrected." I hope you understand my point - it comes with absolutely no offense intended.

[Rum Runner]

Rhums vieux et agricoles de la Martinique

Under this title they (Martayrol) had previously displayed "Martinique Agricole Blanc y Brun- Chauffe Coeur"

I believe I read somewhere the Santa Marita des Sargasses may come from Guadeloupe

Below is a copy of my email to Christine.



Dear Christine. Your friend Mark gave me your email and suggested I contact you directly. I am a member of the Ministry of Rum forum and have been following the discussion regarding the labeling of the Chauffe Coeur rums. Mark informed me that you have provided documentation supporting the AOC provenance of the rums to Ed. May I impose upon you share the same documents with me for my edification?

Best regards to you and yours over the holidays,

[Mark]

RR - I never implied that Christine provided documentation supporting the AOC provenance of her rhums to Ed. I wrote that she provided Ed with what documentation she had.

Mat - So you found the Chauffe Coeur rhums "interesting" and that they taste "exceptional"? Is that what you're sharing with the other rum enthusiasts?

[Rum Runner]

All Rums Chauffe Coeur sold in the US are always accompanied by the Certificate of Origin Martinique Agricole;

If the document does not show AOC provenance I wonder what it does show?

An e-mail to Christine will result in all legal documents being provided for the suspicious consumer. There are strict French laws regarding AOC's and all doubt should be removed.

Forgive me If I thought you implied the legal documents might be regarding AOC provenance

[Mark]

RR - I hope you find out. By the by did you provide her with your private personal e-mail? I wish you would.

[Rum Runner]

I emailed her from my personal email account.

[Edward Hamilton]

Here is a copy of the certificate sent me by the importer. She tried to attach it to her first message but it didn't work for her. I have a lot to say about this thread and will be editing this post as soon as time permits.

http://ministryofrum.com/images/cerorrum.jpg

[Rum Runner]

Thanks for posting the document Ed. After carefull reading my conclusion is that this is really not much more than a bill of lading stamped by a clerk in the Paris Chamber of Commerce office. I'll be generous and take it on face value that the product comes from Martinique (though there is no supporting evidence for that, other than they say it is). That Martayrol describes the product as "Rhum Agricole" does not mean it is. Martayrol is well aware of the documentation needed from the INAO to claim or imply AOC status. This document does nothing to support any claim or inferrence to AOC in any legal way. Martayrol is also well aware that no "Apellation Rhum Controlee" exists.

If Christine has been led to believe that this document carries any legal weight with regards to AOC, she has been sadly duped.

To be honest I think Martayrol has purposely tried to pull the wool over the eyes of the American public and ride on the coat-tails of their brethrens AOC. Their feet should be held to the fire for this. For the time being I'll give Christine the benefit of the doubt, and choose to believe that she is not complicit in this ruse. Rather that she has been mis-informed and/or mis-led as others have apparently been.

[Milicent]

"I have a lot to say about this thread and will be editing this post as soon as time permits." Ed Hamilton

Just like a trainwreck, the developments on this thread has been hard to avoid. I'll be interested to hear Ed's comments.

Ed has done a great job with this site. In addition to its creation, he has always managed to maintain a good spirit. The vast majority of regular posters are good folks, considerate, and just interested in sharing their rum stories and experiences. I am grateful to Ed, this site, and the people who had made it what it is. Thank you one and all.

[Rum Runner]

"I have a lot to say about this thread and will be editing this post as soon as time permits." Ed Hamilton

Just like a trainwreck, the developments on this thread has been hard to avoid. I'll be interested to hear Ed's comments.

Ed has done a great job with this site. In addition to its creation, he has always managed to maintain a good spirit. The vast majority of regular posters are good folks, considerate, and just interested in sharing their rum stories and experiences. I am grateful to Ed, this site, and the people who had made it what it is. Thank you one and all.

Millicent, I agree with you. Ed has done a spendid job and is to be commended to great length for his efforts.

Speaking personally, I also feel that this thread (while woefully protracted) has begun to bring to light that the average consumer is entitled to be aware of the product they are buying, and misleading or false statements made on labels are not something to be trifled with.

My girlfriend and I will be in Ft Worth in the 3rd week of January visiting her sister. We invite you to dinner at a place of your choice. Our treat. Happy Holidays to you and thank you for your contributions.

[Edward Hamilton]

As I have previously stated my interest in this issue was and is solely to learn more about this product. Despite what some might believe I have not had the opportunity to taste any of the Chauffe Coeur rums. I have seen them in stores but have never tasted them, more on that later. I first learned of Chauffe Coeur Martinique Rhum Agricole a few years ago while I was in Martinique. As is my usual practice when I discover a new rum, I tried to determine where it was distilled and when I couldn’t find out from the label, I asked my friends at the distilleries, to no avail.

About ten years ago I was investigating the origin of Kaniche Martinique and Kaniche Guadeloupe rums for inclusion in my second book. I learned that according to French labeling regulations the name of an island can not be used in the brand name of a rum product. These Kaniche rums were not sold in France but only in the US. At that time the AOC general secretary was very interested in anything which appeared to claim to be from Martinique. I learned that there are a number of negociants in France who buy, sell, blend and/or bottle spirits. Having been to every distillery in the Eastern Caribbean more than a few times, I asked the distillers where they thought these rums were distilled. The consensus of the answers I got was that more than likely they were bought before 1995, blended and bottled in France and may or may not have been distilled in the French West Indies.

In the past three years rhum agricole has received unprecedented international attention. Martinique rhum producers are very proud of their products and are the only geographic region in the world to have an Appellation for their rhum agricole. Then along comes the Appellation Rhum Controlee, without the French punctuation in the word Contrôlée (http://caribbean-spirits.com/rhumagricole.htm#appelation). I asked the AOC general secretary and the Martinique distillers about this new Appellation and was met with more than skepticism. After all, these distillers had worked together, not an easy task, for more than a decade to agree on and get their Appellation approved by the French government.

The problem of appellation is not limited to the rum industry on Martinique. In the EU there is considerable discussion concerning the seemingly innocuous term vodka, what it can be made from and how the raw ingredient must be identified. In the wine industry, the debate over adding sugar to the fermenting wine has become heated enough to distill more than a little wine into what could be called vodka, depending on how you define vodka.

Edward Hamilton and the Ministry of Rum are not the rum police. But let me ask a simple question. When you buy a bottle that has the words Tennessee Whiskey on the label do you deserve to be getting Tennessee Whiskey, or is it good enough for that spirit to be made in Georgia, or even Florida, by a bottler who simply uses the words Tennessee Whiskey as a trade name? After all it’s just a couple of words. When you pay the price for a bottle of amber spirit with the words Single Malt Scotch on the label is it good enough for that spirit to be a malt beverage distilled from sugar cane in India?

Currently the Scotch Whisky producers are spending a lot of money in India, China and even the US to avoid future conflicts with spirits bottlers who would rather use an established name recognized for quality than to admit to their customers that their product actually has very little to do with the brand name on the label.

Are there good spirits made in places other than Scotland or Tennessee? Absolutely. Are there good rums made in places other than Martinique? I have a cabinet full of them. Does the consumer deserve to be getting a bottle of Martinique Rhum Agricole when those words are on the label? I believe so, and so do the distillers and bottlers of Martinique. Part of the money the rhum agricole producers of Martinique pay each year to the CODERUM, their association, goes to protect their appellation from being used in a misleading or fraudulent manner. In Martinique, only rhums which conform to the AOC regulations can have the words RHUM AGRICOLE on the label. Furthermore, no one is allowed to use the word MARTINIQUE as part of their brand name.

After an expensive marketing survey of the US rum industry it was determined that Americans don’t drink white rum and that aged Martinique rhum agricole was too expensive to sell in the US. So the Dillon distillery produced a product called rhum brun - brown rum. There was no pretense that this rum was not made from sugar cane juice but rather molasses and Dillon Brown Rum was exported to the US. The result was predictable. The French wouldn’t drink that stuff, and neither did the Americans. But the result was that for more than the next ten years anyone who had seen or heard about that rum was convinced that Martinique made some of the worst rum in the industry.

Following that failure I have to admit to being prejudiced against anything called rum brun, though I haven’t had the opportunity to try any of the Chauffe Coeur rums. It may be hard to believe, but there are a lot of private label rums that have not yet crossed my lips, some for good reason, others because they weren’t available.

It is not my intention to cast doubt on the quality of the Chauffe Coeur Martinique Rhum Agricole, but I have to admit that they have yet to instill any credibility in their product in regards to being an authentic rhum agricole from Martinique by their Appellation Rhum Controllee, an Appellation which appears to exist solely on the label of this brand of rum.

As I have told more than a few rum bottlers who have made claims which are easily dispelled, “Why don’t you just tell me that you spent x years perfecting your special blend of rum and that you hope I enjoy drinking it as much as you enjoy making it for me?” But please don’t come to me with a bottle of rum and claim that it was distilled in a copper pot still in a country in which there hasn’t been a pot still operating since ‘before times,’ as islanders describe anything that happened before the oldest of them were born.

And don’t tell me about the combination of tropical sunshine, trade winds, terrier, sugar cane and distiller’s skill on an island that hasn’t grown sugar cane in more than the two decades I spent sailing the islands. Yes I spent time drinking rum on every rock in the Eastern Caribbean that was big enough to accommodate a rum shop. I also talked to everyone I met along the way in an attempt to learn who made the rum they liked and what made that rum special. And then I went to the places where these rums were made and talked to the people who cut the cane, fired the still and distilled the rum.

False and misleading marketing claims have become part of parcel of too many businesses. In China, "The counterfeit problem is increasing as the popularity of Western spirits increases," says Jamie Fortescue, director general of the European Spirits Organisation (ESO).
The ESO estimates that one in four spirits brands claiming to be of European origin sold in China is counterfeit. That could translate to a loss of EUR50m for the European spirits industry, says Fortescue. . .

One of the biggest problems facing the rum industry today is a tarnished reputation for unsavory and doctored spirits sold by unscrupulous marketers. As someone who has worked for years to do everything I can to help promote the good name of my favorite spirit it is my goal to raise the credibility of the growing selection of sugar cane spirits we are lucky enough to enjoy. It is my sincere hope that by positive discussion like this forum that those who choose to market sugar cane spirits will do so responsibly.

To date this forum has required almost no moderation with the exception of a few spammers who were quickly banned by the administrators; everyone’s first post is moderated. I’m not surprised that this thread has raised a lot of controversy, most of which has been positive discussion about an important question. I am closing this thread until I receive a response from those involved with the topic of this thread. If they choose not to answer the questions posed above, well, then they have spoken.

Should you try Chauffe Coeur Martinique Rhum Agricole with the Appellation Rhum Controllee? I will when I have a chance to do so. I just hope the good taste of this rhum will linger longer than the question of its origin and dubious Appellation.