Rum definition?

[BarNowON]

Hi, I'd like to know if anybody has got a real definition for the word Rum.

The one that I always tend to use is that rum is the product of the sugar cane, fermented and distilled in a cane growing country.

So I went to check how many sugar cane producing countries there is out there...
And I found on wiki that 195 countries cultivate some sort of sugar cane!
Then, the question that came to mind was: How many countries there are in the world?
:confused:That's when it becomes typical Ron: There is actually 193 countries in the world (United Nations +/or 194 with Vatican: Are they distilling Rhum as well?)

Does this mean that rum can simply be produced anywhere in the world, if the sugar cane is cultivated everywhere? (As long as you've got a still)
cheers

[Paulipbartender]

Lots of rum is produced in non-cane producing countries so technically it can be produced anywhere - from St Peters Square to Greenland. It's the raw ingredient that defines the category.

I'm desperate to try the Pope's Holy Water Rum if you find it by the way Mickael... :)

[young0076]

Here is the best defination of rum that I have

Rum - Perhaps the greatest of all distilled spirits, rum has often been linked to pirates, trading ships, treasure islands and heavenly tropical paradises. It is no wonder then, that the mere mention of the word will evoke very pleasant feelings and thoughts.

party2.gif cigar.gif drool.gif

[angelsword]

"Spirits distilled from the fermented juice of sugar cane, sugar cane syrup, sugar cane molasses, or other sugar cane by-product at less than 95% ABV."

[Paulipbartender]

Up to 96% in the EU

[BarNowON]

Up to 96% in the EU

Ohhhhhhh, 96% is very close to neutral spirit, isn't it?

Any distiller around that could help us to know if we can still retain the flavour(s) of the raw material when distilling to this strength, or did the rum became a vodka?

(can we make vodka with sugar cane?laughing.gif)

[TheRumelier]

[QUOTE=BarNowON;24369

(can we make vodka with sugar cane?laughing.gif)[/QUOTE]

Ceren Vodka from El Salvador.

[Michael]

Isn't the Gilbey's line, including Gin and Vodka, manufactured by The West Indies Rum Distillery Limited (http://www.westindiesrum.com/)?

[leisure master]

Yeah, anything that can be distilled can be distilled to be a flavorless neutral spirit - essentially vodka or everclear.

Interesting thread. Rum does seem to have a wider variety than many other spirits - from clear to dark from agricole to demerara, but yet they are all rum because they all fit within the somewhat wide definition.

The only other beverage that I can think of that covers such a wide variety would be beer. And I am sure there is a Ministry of Beer website somewhere where they are debating what is and is not beer...:rolleyes:

More specific to rum though, with all it's refinements in recent years I have wondered at what point cachaca will be referred to as rum the way something like agricoles are known as rum (or rhum party1.gif).

[BarNowON]

More specific to rum though, with all it's refinements in recent years I have wondered at what point cachaca will be referred to as rum the way something like agricoles are known as rum (or rhum party1.gif).

That's what I mean. It's really tough to get around the rum category. I usually tend to introduce rum in a similar way to brandy. Then, you can have some sub division, such as cognac, armagnac, pisco...etc...but you can also add fruit brandies (calvados, etc...)

At the end, Rum must be made with sugar cane, that's it. And the cachaca family is rum as much as Cane Rhum.:)

[gatomalo]

That's what I mean. It's really tough to get around the rum category. I usually tend to introduce rum in a similar way to brandy. Then, you can have some sub division, such as cognac, armagnac, pisco...etc...but you can also add fruit brandies (calvados, etc...)

At the end, Rum must be made with sugar cane, that's it. And the cachaca family is rum as much as Cane Rhum.:)

Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?

As for cachaзa being a rum, doesn't that depend on where you live?

[leisure master]

As for cachaзa being a rum, doesn't that depend on where you live?
That's the only distinction I can come up with. I guess it's like champagne and tequila - technically you can make them anywhere, but they only get the name if they're made somewhere specific. I suppose Martinique has done the same thing with the "Rhum" designation too.

Good call on brandy, BNO - that's another family tree with a lot of branches - and people do not always realize that all those spirits you named are in fact brandies.

Anything that starts with sugar cane is rum enough for me - there's plenty of room at the table!

[angelsword]

That's what I mean. It's really tough to get around the rum category. I usually tend to introduce rum in a similar way to brandy. Then, you can have some sub division, such as cognac, armagnac, pisco...etc...but you can also add fruit brandies (calvados, etc...)

Brandy is from ANY fruit, not just grapes. Calvados is a regional sub-category of applejack, distilled from apple cider, and applejack is a category of brandy.

[BarNowON]

Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?

As for cachaзa being a rum, doesn't that depend on where you live?

Sparkling wine has got his champagne
Brandy has got his "eau de vie"
Rum has got his Rum & ron, & rhum, & Cachaca, & may be vodka (if not distilled up to 96%), and spiced rums, and etc....

so what else do you think should be under the category of rum?

because if I say to a student, "Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?" , he mights freaked out!

[Michael]

...
so what else do you think should be under the category of rum?

because if I say to a student, "Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?" , he mights freaked out!

Bartenders need to be made of sterner stuff! Perhaps this question could serve as an early test of the proper mettle for the profession. :D

[Edward Hamilton]

Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?

As for cachaзa being a rum, doesn't that depend on where you live?

Precisely! If distilled to less than 95% (or 96%, if you are selling it in the EU) alcohol by volume, sugar cane spirits can be called rum. Distilled to more than 95, or 96, % abv and it becomes something else.

As stated elsewhere on this forum, almost every Caribbean island distillery of any size also produces and bottles a sugar cane vodka, which is many cases is more palatable than a grain spirit.

The Brazilian distillers of Cachaca are working to get a designation that cachaca can only be made in Brazil.

Other uses of high proof sugar cane spirits are a) blending with agave distillate to make less than 100% Agave Tequila b) vodka c) base spirit for Gin - Jamaica's Old Tom is but one example c) distillate for liqueurs d) medical alcohol e) fuel sold as methylated spirits f) and there are more.

[BarNowON]

Thanks everyone for your help, it really opens my eyes to know that there are so many rums.
I'd like also to know if you think that Malibu, Shrub and falernum are rums?
some people say no, and some bottles say yes gzzg
salut

[Paulipbartender]

Any additives other than caramel and it's a flavoured rum. Malibu is a coconut flavoured rum and it says so on the bottle. Chip shouldering conspiracy theorists like the not so dearly departed Jimbo might tell you other producers should carry flavouring labels.......

[Edward Hamilton]

Falernum is not technically rum since it is bottled at less than 40% abv. If you look at the label carefully you'll see that it isn't called rum. Clement Shrub, on the other hand, is a flavored rum and the flavoring is stated on the bottle.

It should be noted that products like Malibu and Captain Morgan, in the US, are labeled as flavorful or spiced rums and aren't subject to the minimum alcohol content of 40%.

In the case of Captain Morgan, that product was almost scrapped until it was decided to drop the abv from 40 to 35%, at which point there was a 12.5% advantage in taxes which equated to about savings of nearly $3 a case which was enough to fund the marketing for the next year, and the rest is history.

Most of the Bacardi flavored rums including Limon, the most successful of all of Bacardi's flavored rums came to the market at 35% abv.

[Hank Koestner]

Great thread, always more to learn about all spirits. If Cachaca is not considered a rum, what distinguishes it, or is it a rum? I was asked this question the other night, and I thought it was because Cachaca was distilled to 35%, which falls under the 40 minimum.:confused:

[Tiare]

I consider cachaca a type of rum but its cachaca, its something of its own and shouldn`t be called rum but cachaca. In the same way almost as i consider rhum agricole to be called rhum agricole and not rum.

[BarNowON]

10 cane, in a way, is made like cachaca. 10 Cane is a rum and not a cachaca.
Cachaca is only a kind of Appelation d'Oringine Controllee, a regional appelation exclusive to Brasil.
It's the same with the Rhum agricole, many rums are produced in the same way, with the same rules and etc... that goes with the AOC, but because they are not produced in Martinique or Guadeloupe, then they can't be called Rhum Agricole.

If I take the example of Brandy, cognac is a brandy, Calvados as well, armagnac, pisco, etc...But why we can't say that cachaca is a rum? (even if usually we can find cachaca at international r(h)um(s) tasting).

I'm sure that this is not the first time that this question has been asked, but is there a true answer (founded with facts)?

[angelsword]

Cachaca should be considered as a distinct sub-category of rum, just as cognac is a sub-category of brandy.

[Paulipbartender]

Well not all cachacas could be considered rum. I would suggest the rum category encompasses all distillates produced exclusively from sugar cane products. A lot of artisinal (small) cachaca producers are freely allowed to use non-sugar leavening agents to accelerate and influence fermentation.

So we might say many cachacas are rum but not all.

[forrest]

I would suggest the rum category encompasses all distillates produced exclusively from sugar cane products. A lot of artisinal (small) cachaca producers are freely allowed to use non-sugar leavening agents to accelerate and influence fermentation.

Well, Paul you know you are my dog, but i am going to have to disagree with you.

More than a few rums use 'other than' sugar cane in their 'leavening' or fermentation. One such example is Ron Zacapa, who have apparently admitted to the Rum Ambassador to adding pineapple to the Mash (i assume to affect the ph of the mash).
There is also the practice of adding 'spent' distillate (or dunder) the mash. The dunder is no longer sugar it has been converted, and then it was distilled-- so it used to be sugar, but it isn't any more- now it is waste.
Then there is the case of yeast strains - which really is the crux of the matter. In a 'rum' you can use whatever yeast (or leavening agent) you like, from whatever source (organic, natural, chemical, wheat, bear, champagne-- whatever) and specifically that is what is happening with the cachaca-- some of them use 'fermented' corn (or what have you) to 'start' the fermentation, same--same.

So, in short, we are back to: Cachaca is a sub-catagory of rum.

Sorry for going on so long, one of these day i will learn to s.t.f.u.!

and Paul you rule!! so excuse, if i offend, please.

[TheRumelier]

There is some evidence that a harsh alcoholic liquid, mainly drunk by the Native Indians and made from sugar cane was being made in Brazil by the Portugese, long before anything had been produced in the Caribbean. So this could completely reverse the theory that Cachaca is a sub-category of rum. Could it be the other way around?????? Just a thought.
Several Carribean planters went to Brazil to see how sugar was being grown, as it was worth more than the crops they were growing at the time, eg. Tobacco and Cotton.
The plot thickens!!

[Paulipbartender]

No offense taken Forrest, we're big boys. I suppose I was trying to get to the heart of the original question - definition of rum. Dunder is a 'sugar cane product' so fits the definition, but are we comfortable with a definition for the category which says 'principally made from sugar cane products'?

What is a 'rum' if you csn ferment and distil non-sugar products and fit the category? I'm just a drinker so I'll leave that debate to those more learned ........and less hungover this morning - damn you again Diplomatico guy!

[Michael]

...
More than a few rums use 'other than' sugar cane in their 'leavening' or fermentation. One such example is Ron Zacapa, who have apparently admitted to the Rum Ambassador to adding pineapple to the Mash (i assume to affect the ph of the mash).
...

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the source of this provocative information from our Rum Ambassador? A search of his posts on this site brings up only five posts mentioning Zacapa, but none citing the additive in question. None of his posts on this site seem to contain the words Guatemala or Industrias. The only mention of pineapple was in a trivia question related to the Pina Colada.

[Paulipbartender]

It certainly wasn't mentioned by their master distiller the other day, perhaps Ian has some insider gossip...

[forrest]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the source of this provocative information from our Rum Ambassador?

i am sorry that i didn't mention that i read that on Refined Vices... (http://www.refinedvices.com/forum_/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=343)

an excerpt (the Lorena mentioned is Zacapa's Master Distiller):
I was with Lorena last October in Berlin. I too asked her many questions regarding the production of Ron Zacapa rums. Here are some of the answers to my questions...that were given in spanish.


Cane syrup is the raw material.
Pineapples are used to activate fermentation which lasts for two days.
The rums are 5 tiered solera aged (4 Criadera) with rums from 4 to 23 years old.
They used four different type of barels during aging including Madeira and Bourbon casks to age their rums. (She didn't say if there was still some sherry in cask before the rum was added).

The rest is here . . . (http://www.refinedvices.com/forum_/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=343)

[forrest]

No offense taken Forrest, we're big boys.

i am certainly glad i did not offend, i value your knowledge, insight and friendly camaraderie to much to ever allow my 'opinion' to be a wedge.

but are we comfortable with a definition for the category which says 'principally made from sugar cane products'?

That is the crux of the debate, i would say. The mash is sugar cane, but the 'leavening agent' is not. So then should we exclude any sugar cane product that does not use a 'sugar cane-based' leavening agent? We are rum drinkers we are inclusive not exclusionary...

What is a 'rum' if you csn ferment and distil non-sugar products and fit the category?

How about a mash of 98% sugar cane by product??
With the other 2% (or less) achieving the stabilization/leavening of the mash??

i don't know, i'll go with whatever--
but i am with you...

I'm just a drinker so I'll leave that debate to those more learned

and i'll have a drink with my friend Paul.

[Michael]

i am sorry that i didn't mention that i read that on Refined Vices... (http://www.refinedvices.com/forum_/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=343)

Thanks for the reference and link forrest. glass.gif

Please excuse my ignorance, but are we privy to the process of rum making at enough distilleries to conclude that such additions at fermentation (pineapple for Zacapa) are not commonplace? One would hope that established practices of rum making would define the range of rum and that we would avoid excluding long term producers whose distillation technique is suddenly found insufficiently pure.

At what point would the amount added to aid fermentation be sufficient to directly affect the taste of the distillate?

[BarNowON]

TheRumelier: There is some evidence that a harsh alcoholic liquid, mainly drunk by the Native Indians and made from sugar cane was being made in Brazil by the Portugese, long before anything had been produced in the Caribbean.

I've heard about that story too. Was the saugar cane present in Brazil before the visit of Mr C.Colombus in Hispaniola?

Also, may be I would be helpful to know what a Producer (any) CAN'T do, if he wants to keep the "Rum" appelation on its bottle.
A bit like behind the bar, sometimes it is faster to ask people what they doesn't like, instead of asking what they like, and be left there standing for hours....
:)

[Hank Koestner]

I think I will settle for adding Cachaca as type of rum, or better yet, a type of sugar cane spirit.

[Edward Hamilton]

TheRumelier: There is some evidence that a harsh alcoholic liquid, mainly drunk by the Native Indians and made from sugar cane was being made in Brazil by the Portugese, long before anything had been produced in the Caribbean.

I've heard about that story too. Was the saugar cane present in Brazil before the visit of Mr C. Colombus in Hispaniola?

Also, maybe I would be helpful to know what a Producer (any) CAN'T do, if he wants to keep the "Rum" appelation on its bottle.
A bit like behind the bar, sometimes it is faster to ask people what they doesn't like, instead of asking what they like, and be left there standing for hours....
:)

Columbus brought sugar cane to Hispaniola in 1493. About 1502, Spanish and Portuguese planters settled in what is now Brazil. Among the crops they grew was sugar cane, which they brought from Spain and the Canary Islands.

It was more than a hundred years later that sugar cane began to be planted in the Eastern Caribbean islands and processed as sugar to feed the Europe appetite for sweet confections.

[Edward Hamilton]

Isn't it that all rums are sugar cane spirits, but not all sugar cane spirits are rums?

You are exactly right.
If distilled to more than 95% abv for the US, or 96% abv for the EU, sugar cane, or spirits made from other raw materials, are considered to be neutral spirits.

If distilled to 94% abv, sugar cane spirits can be called rum. If distilled to more than 96% all sugar cane spirits are no longer rum.

In many sugar cane producing regions of the world, there are sugar cane based vodkas, gins and other spirits made from sugar cane.



As for cachaзa being a rum, doesn't that depend on where you live?

You're right again. If sold in the US, cachaзa must be labeled as rum. In Brazil rum is considered to be a spirit made from molasses and cachaзa is a spirit distilled to not more than 54% abv from sugar cane juice. Here's more on the definition of sugar cane spirits from the Brazilian Ministry of Agriculture (http://www.distill.com/specs/Brazil7.html).

[BarNowON]

Not really about what you can / or what you can't do, but a couple of days ago, I had a great chat with Mr Brown (Jared).
To my surprise, he told me that Mr Colombus (Christopher) was unlucky, because all his crops of sugar cane died in his boat while travelling to the new world. That fact came up when he went through Christopher's boat diary, written while he was sailing the big oceans.
Would that little matter affect a bit the rum, not definition, but history?
Have you heard, or read, of anything or something similar?