Is your favorite rum real pure rum, or a fruit-induced, rum-based spirit?

[M.R.J.]

For years and years there has been every now & then some insinuations and rumours posted here & there that have suggested that some of the aged premium rums are actually not getting their flavours naturally in the way manufacturers describe, but instead the manufacturers lace the new make (spirit) with any number of spices, fruits, nuts, honey or such for a while, and then (recask I guess?) go on aging the spirit, eventually bottling it as a Premium Aged Rum - with no mention of the "funny business" done there in between.

My personal viewpoint would be that this type of "spiced up" product is a liquour or spiced rum. It should openly give information about the process used, ingredients used, and under no circumstances be sold as "pure aged rum". Lets think about any potential nuts-allergic person drinking it without a clue of the dangers..Heavens, someone could get seriously ill.

If I am paying a premium price for a "noble" spirit under the presumption that it is a pure product derived from sugar cane / molasses alone, I definitely want to know that its taste and flavour is not the result of added flavourings. Liqueur and spiced rums are considerably cheaper..aged or not.

To put it simply, one does not sell flavoured Whisky as Whisky, Bourbon as Bourbon, Cognac as cognac, Armagnac as Armagnac. And one should not sell flavoured rum to consumers as pure aged rum. There should be no buts or ifs about that if you ask me. If this kind of laced-up product is sold, the distiller should openly admit that their product is done in this way and not keep it a big secret and pass the product as anything else.

I would therefore urge anyone who deals with rum producers to ask them this one simple question: Are your aged rums sold getting all their taste simply from the distilled rum spirit, the casks used and the aging - or do you add fruits or other things to the rum/spirit at any point after distillation (even if added before to the fermenting for example, this should definitely be mentioned).

One source suggested that in Venezuela, the law actually allows fruit such as oranges to be used to flavor rum: Makes me wonder how many of the Venezuelan rums that are marketed as just "aged rum" (as opposed to spiced rum) are actually getting their taste from added flavouring of fruits - and should be called & marketed as spiced rums, not as pure aged rum. Also a person mentioned elsewhere that Ron Barrilito's aged products from Puerto Rico are actually spiced rums due to the process which puts fruits and nuts into the spirit during aging in order to get taste in the spirit.

Santa Teresa?
Diplomatico?
Pampero?
Ron Cacique?

The interesting this is, none of the manufacturers speak of this practice on their pages - they are dead keen on keeping this a secret it seems. That alone speaks miles.

As an example of an honest approach in this game I would present to you the Greek brandy Metaxa: They do not try to pass their product as a "pure" brandy, but openly advertise and admit that their's is a flavoured product with herbals.

Rum is gaining on popularity and is / should be by all means right up there with the other "noble" spirits, but the common denominator to all these spirits is that there are strict rules about how they are made, and no true flavouring (caramel colouring is allowed but must be mentioned at least in most European countries, and of course the wood of the cask can impart flavour to the spirit also) is added to them at least after the distillation process; the spirit is left to age pure in casks, and this alone should result in a wonderful taste and flavour - end of story.

If rum is to be taken as an equal and serious player in the field of fine spirits, then it is high time to clear up any suspicions or misunderstandings about what makes the spirit taste as it does.

I hope the distillers come clean on this because its this kind of stuff and rumours floating around that will jeopardize the whole rum business. After the information on Venezuelan law, I at last am very suspicious about rums coming from that country..same goes for Puerto Rico. Problem is, these are still rumours - not proof. Those people who visit the distilleries and get to see what goes on there, how about some public laundry washing and facts? It would be a refreshing change to the "what goes on behind closed doors in secrecy" attitudes.

Most of all I would call out the distillers to come out and "fess up" if there's something to confess. If nothing else, chemical analysis of your spirits may tell us the truth eventually anyways..

[Carbon]

I saw you mention this in another thread and would agree that some transparency would be nice, but unfortunately most rum is not as tightly controlled as something like Scotch would be. Things like the AOC and others are steps in the right direction, but we'll see how things go from here. A lot of people here were/are suspicious about Pyrat in particular.

Besides just waiting and hoping, is there any way we as consumers can check up on this? Any chemists around here? Can you even test for stuff like that? It sounds expensive if possible.

[rumdog007]

For years and years there has been every now & then some insinuations and rumours posted here & there that have suggested that some of the aged premium rums are actually not getting their flavours naturally in the way manufacturers describe, but instead the manufacturers lace the new make (spirit) with any number of spices, fruits, nuts, honey or such for a while, and then (recask I guess?) go on aging the spirit, eventually bottling it as a Premium Aged Rum - with no mention of the "funny business" done there in between.

My personal viewpoint would be that this type of "spiced up" product is a liquour or spiced rum. It should openly give information about the process used, ingredients used, and under no circumstances be sold as "pure aged rum". Lets think about any potential nuts-allergic person drinking it without a clue of the dangers..Heavens, someone could get seriously ill.

If I am paying a premium price for a "noble" spirit under the presumption that it is a pure product derived from sugar cane / molasses alone, I definitely want to know that its taste and flavour is not the result of added flavourings. Liqueur and spiced rums are considerably cheaper..aged or not.

To put it simply, one does not sell flavoured Whisky as Whisky, Bourbon as Bourbon, Cognac as cognac, Armagnac as Armagnac. And one should not sell flavoured rum to consumers as pure aged rum. There should be no buts or ifs about that if you ask me. If this kind of laced-up product is sold, the distiller should openly admit that their product is done in this way and not keep it a big secret and pass the product as anything else.

I would therefore urge anyone who deals with rum producers to ask them this one simple question: Are your aged rums sold getting all their taste simply from the distilled rum spirit, the casks used and the aging - or do you add fruits or other things to the rum/spirit at any point after distillation (even if added before to the fermenting for example, this should definitely be mentioned).

One source suggested that in Venezuela, the law actually allows fruit such as oranges to be used to flavor rum: Makes me wonder how many of the Venezuelan rums that are marketed as just "aged rum" (as opposed to spiced rum) are actually getting their taste from added flavouring of fruits - and should be called & marketed as spiced rums, not as pure aged rum. Also a person mentioned elsewhere that Ron Barrilito's aged products from Puerto Rico are actually spiced rums due to the process which puts fruits and nuts into the spirit during aging in order to get taste in the spirit.

Santa Teresa?
Diplomatico?
Pampero?
Ron Cacique?

The interesting this is, none of the manufacturers speak of this practice on their pages - they are dead keen on keeping this a secret it seems. That alone speaks miles.

As an example of an honest approach in this game I would present to you the Greek brandy Metaxa: They do not try to pass their product as a "pure" brandy, but openly advertise and admit that their's is a flavoured product with herbals.

Rum is gaining on popularity and is / should be by all means right up there with the other "noble" spirits, but the common denominator to all these spirits is that there are strict rules about how they are made, and no true flavouring (caramel colouring is allowed but must be mentioned at least in most European countries, and of course the wood of the cask can impart flavour to the spirit also) is added to them at least after the distillation process; the spirit is left to age pure in casks, and this alone should result in a wonderful taste and flavour - end of story.

If rum is to be taken as an equal and serious player in the field of fine spirits, then it is high time to clear up any suspicions or misunderstandings about what makes the spirit taste as it does.

I hope the distillers come clean on this because its this kind of stuff and rumours floating around that will jeopardize the whole rum business. After the information on Venezuelan law, I at last am very suspicious about rums coming from that country..same goes for Puerto Rico. Problem is, these are still rumours - not proof. Those people who visit the distilleries and get to see what goes on there, how about some public laundry washing and facts? It would be a refreshing change to the "what goes on behind closed doors in secrecy" attitudes.

Most of all I would call out the distillers to come out and "fess up" if there's something to confess. If nothing else, chemical analysis of your spirits may tell us the truth eventually anyways..

Are you having a bad day?

[RobertBurr]

A great detective like you should not be wasting your time on rum. Find out how they make sausage in Moscow, then get back to us with your findings. Force them to confess for their own good -- so we can all sleep better at night.

[Count Silvio]

I feel MRJ is making a valid point. I would not want to pay a premium price for a product that merely claims to be one but infact is not. I'm not paying the price of a Porsche if the car has a tractors engine under its hood but I might be willing to pay a lower price.

[M.R.J.]

Besides just waiting and hoping, is there any way we as consumers can check up on this? Any chemists around here? Can you even test for stuff like that? It sounds expensive if possible.

All alcoholic beverages sold in any EU-country usually go through a chemical analysis anyways to ensure that the products are safe for the consumers to drink, so this is a standard practice. I will try and consult some chemist in order to find out what exactly can they detect from the spirit. This would be a nifty detective's answer to the question, if an analysis could easily prove who's fixing their taste with additives.

[M.R.J.]

A great detective like you should not be wasting your time on rum. Find out how they make sausage in Moscow, then get back to us with your findings. Force them to confess for their own good -- so we can all sleep better at night.

Dear Mr. Burr, I read your sarcastic remarks, thank you for the feedback which sadly added no value as such to this discussion. I am surprised and disappointed.

The Moscow remark must be related to my geographical physical location, yes? Sigh..Moscow sits in another country, Russia - not in Finland. The distance between my location and it is approximately 1000 kilometres - thats 600 miles, perhaps easier to comprehend for a US citizen. As I mentioned elsewhere, I live now in Finland but have also lived in Trinidad, Toronto, Vancouver, Madrid and London. (Seems like I must make excuses for my current location, albeit I fail to see how it has anything to do with my potential tasting ability, or knowledge of rums).

Russian sausages may be of whatever quality, but they are not sold as a Premium drink for exuberant prices to connoisseurs, and certainly they are consumed by far less people internationally than rum is. Again, this discussion is about RUM - I hope all could keep this in mind.

RUM is the "old new kid" in the world of Fine spirits. RUM wants to challenge the position of Cognac and Whisky as the favoured fine tipple of connoisseurs. Now at the same time, RUM is the only one where I see rules and control over manufacturing deeply lacking, and RUM is the only one where we even need to speak of such dubious, behind-closed doors practices as flavouring new make spirit to get taste into what I guess is otherwise too bland a spirit. RUM. This to me is something that the rum industry should either stop doing, come clean about, and change their ways and marketing.

It is a regrettable fact that NONE of the books I have read on rum speak of the practice of lacing new make spirit with apples and oranges so to speak. I find this not only disappointing, but also quite upsetting. Why omit this information so callously, to keep in good terms with the manufacturing crowd? This is "Finlandization" at its worst (Mr. Burr, pls check it out from a dictionary if the term is not familiar to you).

I would really like to publicly express my regret for the fact that my posts seem to annoy the living daylights of so many respected writers here. Gentlemen, please consider the real message in my posts: RUM will suffer from a bad reputation, and rum business will never find its way out of the woods to the connoisseurs with its head hidden in a bush and with use of deviant practices.

Now I sincerely hope to see truly contributional posts here, with discussion versing a little further into the topic than sly remarks about my physical location please...

[M.R.J.]

Are you having a bad day?

Thanks for asking rumdog007 - no, its a bright and sunny beautiful day here in the extreme North, how about there in Cali?

I might just taste this afternoon a fine whisky, Bowmore Maltmen's Selection..2 sherry casks selected & bottled at full cask strength and released as a limited edition, priced at Ј120 a bottle.

This 13yo whisky has as far as I know no added colour, no other additives - simple magic that is the quality of the new make spirit, the influence of the cask's wood and air over a period of time as the whisky aged in the cask has made this close to perfection.

Didn't need apples, oranges, chocolate, spices, nuts or honey or any such thing to make it palatable. No additives, no nonsense - a pure spirit that tastes excellent. Just the way I like it! :-)

[RC]

Dear Mr. Burr, I read your sarcastic remarks, thank you for the feedback which sadly added no value as such to this discussion. I am surprised and disappointed.

The Moscow remark must be related to my geographical physical location, yes? Sigh..Moscow sits in another country, Russia - not in Finland. The distance between my location and it is approximately 1000 kilometres - thats 600 miles, perhaps easier to comprehend for a US citizen. As I mentioned elsewhere, I live now in Finland but have also lived in Trinidad, Toronto, Vancouver, Madrid and London. (Seems like I must make excuses for my current location, albeit I fail to see how it has anything to do with my potential tasting ability, or knowledge of rums).

Oh, good grief.

[lperry]

Didn't need apples, oranges, chocolate, spices, nuts or honey or any such thing to make it palatable. No additives, no nonsense - a pure spirit that tastes excellent. Just the way I like it! :-)

Hi M.R.J. Most companies will carefully guard as trade secrets what they might add to their rum, but I have found that if you ask, most will tell you if there are additions or infusions. Barrilitos, for example, is very straightforward about adding botanicals.

If you are interested in knowing about a particular spirit, you may want to contact the producer. Thus far, it has been my experience that people have been open and forthcoming with information about how their rums are produced, and they have even been surprised that someone was interested enough to inquire. If you want to drink rum with nothing in the bottle other than cane, if you do some research, you should be able to narrow the field and find some wonderful rums to try. The members here may be able to help as well. If at any time you feel that a producer is not being forthcoming, by all means, leave their product on the shelf.

For me, it is the surprise and mystery of rum that I love, and trying to figure out why one bottle is different from the next is part of the journey of experiencing rum. Yes, rum is different from other spirits in so many ways, but for many of us, that is exactly the point. Your journey with rum may lead you to the discovery that you want to drink other spirits exclusively, but I hope that you will enjoy the journey nonetheless.

[M.R.J.]

Oh, good grief.

Yup - my sentiments exactly.

[rumdog007]

I feel MRJ is making a valid point. I would not want to pay a premium price for a product that merely claims to be one but infact is not. I'm not paying the price of a Porsche if the car has a tractors engine under its hood but I might be willing to pay a lower price.

Count Silvio, I get that. The thing is, for me, that there seems to be some idea that Rum is striving for some sort of ascendancy, it's on the road up, if you will, to becoming an equal in the pantheon of noble spirits. While huge spirits companies like to promote such hyperbole in their literature, most rum producers are just doing what they have done for years. They are making rum which reflects the regional taste profile. Using your example, yes, when I pay out Porsche money, it had better be 100% Porsche. Pampero, for instance, makes no other claim for itself than just being Pampero. And, I certainly have no proof they are, using your example, substituting any engines. I read Refined Vices. You are doing a wonderful job sorting the wheat from the chaff. A specific example would be your review and comparision of the Zacapa 23 Solera, old and new. No uprising was needed to get you, the consumer, to speak your mind about a spirit. There is no mission within the MOR forum to downplay an inferior rum's weakness, as has been suggested. Our taste buds have been doing a great job so far! Take Lew Barrett for example. I love reading about how his taste has evolved and how some of the rums which he once placed quite high on his list have become less involving for him. I mention Lew because his journey seems to track a course similar to mine. One must not expect a forum to be the venue for revolution. This is our home base for kinship when we huddle around our beloved spirit. Sure, everyone speak out! Let us know what you think about a particular rum. Review it and write about it. Visit the distillery and report what you find. Wait, we've been doing this all along!

cheers.gif

[M.R.J.]

Hi M.R.J. Most companies will carefully guard as trade secrets what they might add to their rum, but I have found that if you ask, most will tell you if there are additions or infusions. Barrilitos, for example, is very straightforward about adding botanicals.

What I find very, very strange is that we have now probably hundreds of websites, a half a dozen or more books written about rum - and NONE really bother to speak of this lacing of rum with fruits etc. Every single other aspect of rum is covered in excruciating detail, but somehow a little thing called the truth about what really gives the spirit its taste is omitted completely. Strange, unless others have also come to the conclusion that such practices are not really presentable as such.

I have contacted for example WIRSPA, and await for a straight-forward, honest answer which will either tell me that no, WIRSPA does not allow this kind of unspoken practices, or it will say yes, WIRSPA is aware of such practices and thinks they are ok, even if all of the Rum producer's websites strangely fail to mention such trickery. I sincerely hope and wish that the answer is no, WIRSPA does not tolerate this type of lacing of spirits in secrecy to improve their taste.

If you want to drink rum with nothing in the bottle other than cane, if you do some research, you should be able to narrow the field and find some wonderful rums to try. The members here may be able to help as well.

I am doing this research as we speak, and have asked the members of this forum to do their part also in finding out the truth. To me the very fact that there is an unspoken secret practice of flavouring the spirit that every single source fails to speak of, no matter how detailed information these sources otherwise might carry says how well aware the rum business, distillers and other people involved in rum are of the fact that this kind of practice is totally unacceptable.

What I am trying to do has nothing to do with limiting the variety of rums we enjoy, or not being able to enjoy different types of rum: It is simply a matter of honesty and integrity. Whatever the distillers do with their spirit should be visible and openly explained in their websites, marketing materials - and indeed in rum books done by private expert authors. Secrecy, cheating, cover-ups - that path will not lead rum anywhere.

Again, no other premium spirit gets away with secretly spicing up their new make spirit in order to later on get a more flavourful product - and rum should not either. I have full confidence that rum, PURE rum alone, can be good enough to compete with any fine spirit in this world. Seems like some do not share this belief sadly.

[rumdog007]

Thanks for asking rumdog007 - no, its a bright and sunny beautiful day here in the extreme North, how about there in Cali?

I might just taste this afternoon a fine whisky, Bowmore Maltmen's Selection..2 sherry casks selected & bottled at full cask strength and released as a limited edition, priced at Ј120 a bottle.

This 13yo whisky has as far as I know no added colour, no other additives - simple magic that is the quality of the new make spirit, the influence of the cask's wood and air over a period of time as the whisky aged in the cask has made this close to perfection.

Didn't need apples, oranges, chocolate, spices, nuts or honey or any such thing to make it palatable. No additives, no nonsense - a pure spirit that tastes excellent. Just the way I like it! :-)

You are correct that, in the other thread, I doubted where you were located. No slight was intended to Finland. It seemed by the content of your post, to me, that an old ghost was re-visiting us under another name. I appologize for the misguided assumption. I thank you for the lead on another good whisky to try. So far, nothing from Bowmore has diappointed me.glass.gif

[rumdog46]

RE:M.R.J.,
May I ask why you even bother to drink rum in the first place? Seems like you are on some conspiracy mission on rum distillers like they are some pharmacutical company needing to disclose every process for creating their blends. Rum is to be experienced and enjoyed, some you will like and some you won't. It's the journey down the road that we love.

Very confused as to where you are coming coming. Honestly don't care. Have a nice day and take a deep deep breath.

[M.R.J.]

Review it and write about it. Visit the distillery and report what you find. Wait, we've been doing this all along!

cheers.gif

Sure, me too. Love popping over to a distillery and do that whenever I can, where-ever I may be where interesting distilleries are to be found.

I just find it funny that an aspect of manufacturing process that greatly affects the spirit's taste has been 99.99% omitted here, there, everywhere - by the makers themselves, the respected rum authors and last but not the least, the rum "lovers". Some seem to take the "who cares" view, others speak of "let there be variety". All good - but how come this industry practice which seems not tolerate the light of day?

I don't see for example Venezuelans proudly coming forth at rumfest to state that "the true secret of our rums excellence and quality lies in the fruits and spices we add to the new make spirit for a year or two, before rebarreling an letting the spirit age in peace".
How about Mount Gay, what if they advertised the Tricentennial as "a blend of our best honey and orange-infused rums from 60's and 70's married for one year in a large cedarwood vat to ensure finesse". Nope, don't think so.
And the revered Zacapa - suppose they came out to say that "the delicious sweetness in our rum is derived from the Central American stingless bees' honey we add to the initial casks along with some liquorice and nutmeg".

Hmm. All these, as well as all other rum producers happily explain to us about the fermentation, distillation style, special casks selected for the task of aging, the blending - somewhere along the lines they omit the part where Ernesto and Gustavo have the job of infusing the new make spirit with the finest imported organically-grown (??) apples and pairs, oranges and vanilla sticks.

True love is so rare these days - even for Rum. Infatuation, a momentary fling perhaps, short of true affection or caring. I really fail to understand the crowd who do not care, as long as the brown alcholic concoction in plentiful enough to get slushed. Misjudging the crowd? Most likely, but think please about what you are saying to this matter before posting it. Lets have some love for Rum here - pure Rum, the fine spirit it is.

[Dood]

I don't get all the hostility here. The guy stated his opinion. If you're spicing your rums, own up to it.

A lot of us here mock Pyrat for their claim that they do not flavor their rum. You can find thread after thread here where people discuss their obvious usage of orange flavorings.

To be honest, I don't care if they mark their bottle as "spiced" if it's an aged product so long as it's aged. Silvio and I got into a discussion about something similar when it comes to Oronoco. Is Oronoco a white rum or an aged rum? It's a blend of rums that have been aged long enough to fit in the aged category, but its flavor and color profiles would allow it to be a white rum. I guess you could call it an aged white rum or a white aged rum.

If Oronoco were to only pick one of those, I'm fine with that. The same with an aged spiced rum. If the rum says 30 years old and I'm getting 30 year old rum, then I'm getting what I paid for. If they only want to mark it as "Aged" instead of "Aged Spiced" I'm willing to live with that - although I think it better if the producer is at least willing to admit when questioned, "Yes, we spice our rum before aging to create a superior tasting product."

Other than that, I just can't get too wrankled about the whole thing.

[M.R.J.]

RE:M.R.J.,
May I ask why you even bother to drink rum in the first place? Seems like you are on some conspiracy mission on rum distillers like they are some pharmacutical company needing to disclose every process for creating their blends. Rum is to be experienced and enjoyed, some you will like and some you won't. It's the journey down the road that we love.

Very confused as to where you are coming coming. Honestly don't care. Have a nice day and take a deep deep breath.

Dear "rumdog",

I have been drinking rum since reaching the legal age basically, got introduced to the local Trini brands like Royal Oak, VAT 19, Fernandes when Diego Martin, Trinidad was home so to speak in those days. I knew rum before I knew about whisky in all honesty.

Yes, I must be a strange person, I wanna know details about what I gulp down, especially when it cost a good bit. I guess for some its enough that its A) alcohol content is there and B) taste is vaguely pleasant. Sorry, thats not me. Yup, I wanna know - call me "hungry for knowledge" or something.

Here's where we are at: We have rumours and statements that an unidentified number of rum makers flavour their new make spirit behind the scenes, and keep this as a secret, stating only quality of their raw materials, distillation, spirit, cask selection and blender's skills as reasons for the fabulous taste of their rum. Which distilleries these are is at this point unknown, but hopefully together we can find out. In the process I am sure we will all learn more about the spirit we love.

BTW anyone who doesn't care, needn't post here either..because I would hope to keep this an informative discussion. Anyone interested in the truth, or wanting to actually learn more about their favorite tipple, please do participate.

[M.R.J.]

I don't get all the hostility here. The guy stated his opinion. If you're spicing your rums, own up to it.

Thanks for this comment. I have seen in the past people being chastised for being hostile, but somehow now got the feeling that it is "ok" in most people's books, as long as the hostility is directed at someone they don't know or someone who's messages are trying to evoke critical discussion instead of just containing "yeah rum is good, man I love it!!".

A lot of us here mock Pyrat for their claim that they do not flavor their rum. You can find thread after thread here where people discuss their obvious usage of orange flavorings.

This is an interesting one, and I would like to ask has anyone spoken directly to Pyrat, asking them about this matter? If so, what was their response? Here's the very essence of this matter - why would they refuse to tell of such a practice if it is used & done? Perhaps because they also feel that admittance might take away some value from their spirit? I have seen websites talk of pyrat, none explain that part of the process is spicing up the spirit. Anyone have a friend mortally allergic to citrus fruits? Offer them Pyrat since its not spiced, huh? Who is responsible if something happens?

White rum can be aged, and often is - I think Angotura says they age theirs about 3 years before bottling it. 3 years in the tropics is a long time.

If the rum says 30 years old and I'm getting 30 year old rum, then I'm getting what I paid for. If they only want to mark it as "Aged" instead of "Aged Spiced" I'm willing to live with that - although I think it better if the producer is at least willing to admit when questioned, "Yes, we spice our rum before aging to create a superior tasting product."

This is true, I hope at least that we all agree on the issue of age statements, they should be honest. However look at how darn difficult it has been for people to find out the age of rums going into the Mount Gay XO blend for example: Mount Gay's website starts immediately the twisting and turning in saying that "well, we prefer to speak of MATURITY instead of the simple age of a cask"..Sigh, I prefer you'd just give us a straight forward answer like the one I got from Angostura about the age of their 12yo: "Not a drop that goes into the blend is less than 12 years old". Amen.

Why is the potential practice of lacing new make rum spirit with flavour-enhancing items such a taboo and secret that no rum producers page speaks of it? Remember, they themselves make a distinct definition between their "premium" and aged spirit, to the "spiced rums" category. Deep down I think the rum producers are quite well aware how admittance of such practices could sway people's opinions about their produce.

[Michael]

Dear M.R.J.,

Where is your proof? Having skimmed this thread (after reading all of the posts in the PR Rum thread), I might have missed a specific example with verification of the, no longer just imagined, misdeeds. My apologies if that were the case?

Perhaps many of us would share your interest if a concrete example of two were forthcoming. Please refrain from misusing Barrilito again (see my post in PR Rum thread). glass.gif

[M.R.J.]

Dear M.R.J.,

Where is your proof? Having skimmed this thread (after reading all of the posts in the PR Rum thread), I might have missed a specific example with verification of the, no longer just imagined, misdeeds. My apologies if that were the case?

Perhaps many of us would share your interest if a concrete example of two were forthcoming. Please refrain from misusing Barrilito again (see my post in PR Rum thread). glass.gif

Thank you for a good post Michael!! My initial search into this matter was triggered by what Mr. Hamilton writes on this Rum (http://caribbean-spirits.com/rhumagricole.htm) page, if you please scroll all the way down, I quote:

"Most molasses-based rum is distilled to about 95% alcohol by volume, neutral spirits. After aging a year or so, some of this neutral spirit is carbon-filtered and bottled as white rum. Other rum is aged. Spirits that were born as neutral spirits are sometimes flavored with raisins, oranges, coffee, chocolate and other flavoring before being bottled as aged rum."

This prompted me to start asking more and more questions. As said, I have been given information since that "Venezuelan law allows this practice". I can only assume at least some Venezuelan rum producers do make use of this legality - but I would again repeat, I ask anyone who is in touch with these producers to please try and ask them about it. Perhaps this forum & the crowd here could participate and actually publish some news on this, I would at least find such activity meaningful for rum lovers.

In the Puerto Rican rum discussion chain I was told that Ron B. does this - sorry, this was *NOT* my own idea or post, it came from other source(s).

I have insinuations like what I quoted above, so I am hoping that together we could actually get facts. We NEED verification, facts - not insinuations or rumours. As long as the facts are not known, the shadow of doubt lies on every rum producer. I really hope others will talk to distillers also, after all they should have nothing to hide from us.

[Michael]

Perhaps we can get Ed to elucidate that paragraph and shed some light on the subject.

[M.R.J.]

I would like that very much also. Please do understand, I do not possess the facts, I am trying to find them.

I hope I am not the only one who is interested in this what I consider serious and important topic. I do really consider this matter also very important to rum, the very drink we all love, and come to discuss on this forum. I hope I have not broken any rule that all discussions should be only 100% positive or non-critical in nature - nor have I come here to discuss this in an effort to alienate or insult others.

[M.R.J.]

No slight was intended to Finland. It seemed by the content of your post, to me, that an old ghost was re-visiting us under another name.

Ooops, my time to apologize for hasty interpretation, rumdog007. I think I know who you mean, and let me assure you, I am nowhere near Fla, even if at this time of the year I occasionally might wish to be.! (Actually Trinidad is the place to be soon, carnivaltime in full swing...lots of good fete around, plenty nice limin' goin on..good music, roti & doubles..I miss that)

In any case sorry for jumping the gun there.

[Edward Hamilton]

"Most molasses-based rum is distilled to about 95% alcohol by volume, neutral spirits. After aging a year or so, some of this neutral spirit is carbon-filtered and bottled as white rum. Other rum is aged. Spirits that were born as neutral spirits are sometimes flavored with raisins, oranges, coffee, chocolate and other flavoring before being bottled as aged rum."


After more than a decade of research at the distilleries, I have stated a fact which I will stand behind.

When I wrote most, I am referring to the quantity of rum produced. If you consider that Bacardi, Angostura and Cruzan, who distill most of their rum close to a neutral spirit, produce more rum in a day than some islands produce in a year. It should be noted that in the US, the regulation is that rum has to be distilled to less than 95% abv while in the EU, the regulations state that rum has to be distilled to less then 96% alcohol.

As an example of the second part of my quote above, the old Zaya from Guatemala was heavily laden with coffee and chocolate flavors, Brugal from the Dominican Republic is a blend of alcohol and flavoring. In the first instance the bottlers of Zaya, a private label, has never told me anything about their rum. In the second instance, when I visited the Brugal distillery they were very forthcoming and willing to show me anything I wanted to see.

In my books, which are regrettably out of print, tell as much as I knew at the time about flavorings and additives. Edward Hamilton and the Ministry of Rum website are not the rum police and I don't intend to be such.

As has been previously discussed, the AOC in Martinique is the only regulatory body in the rum industry that has been adopted by the distillers. It should be noted that the West Indian Rum and Spirits Producers Association agreed a few years ago not to adopt a set of best practices.

As I have done in other threads, I encourage everyone who reads this forum to learn everything they can about the spirits they are enjoying. The first thing I look for is who distilled the rum in the bottle. Blenders commonly don't tell consumers who distilled their products.

As was pointed out above, many rum distillers are simply doing what they have been doing a for generations. Most distillers that I've met are willing to tell me as much as I want to know, though trade secrets have to be respected. I don't rely on distiller websites and I rarely take any information from distiller websites since they are commonly written by marketers and not distillers.

[Edward Hamilton]

In response to some of the tension expressed above. I encourage spirited discussion. From time to time, new members to this forum have tried to discredit distillers because they weren't able to click their mouse and discover everything, including trade secrets, that they wanted to know.

I try not to pass judgment on distillers based on my ability to get responses until I have actually visited a distillery and asked questions in person. Most distillery websites aren't set up to answer all the questions sent in from consumers or journalists.

M.R.J. does bring up a valid point concerning additives that may be harmful to those with severe allergies. Although this does concern me, I am not familiar with any cases of ill effects, but I don't know everything.

[ffp911]

I am not sure it really matters. The only exception is potential allergies. Unless the rum is distilled in a lab(produced in non-reactive glass vessels) and not aged, it will have flavors 'added'. That is the point. You can change the flavor with different yeasts, sugar cane juice, molasses, woods of casks, length of burn of a cask, previously used casks, length of time casked, blending casks; other ways I am sure!

I don't drink my rum because I believe it is 'pure', whatever that means. I drink it because I like the flavor and taste. I expect it to be different! If I want something to taste the same, or have no taste, I'll drink American Vodka. eek.gif

If you don't like how its flavor is(notice I didn't say flavored), don't drink it. If it costs too much for your liking, don't but it. If you don't like the bottle, label, or anything else; don't buy it either.

I am sorry for my rant, but I like my rums different! M.R.J., I almost get from your tone that even if someone here posted with absolute certainty that 'X' rum was absolutely without 'infusion or additions', you wouldn't believe them. I do know one thing, we won't solve this here!

Enjoy

[forrest]

These two posts sum up my position on the matter-- as if my opinion matters, and i picked a snippet from each (it was hard they were both so doggone good!!, but):

Labeling should be clear and honest, yes. Engage in dramatic and confrontational diatribes with those that make rum if you must, not those that enjoy it.

Robert, i love it... getting all fiery-- very nice!

Unless the rum is distilled in a lab(produced in non-reactive glass vessels) and not aged, it will have flavors 'added'. That is the point. You can change the flavor with different yeasts, sugar cane juice, molasses, woods of casks, length of burn of a cask, previously used casks, length of time casked, blending casks; other ways I am sure!

ffp 911, you hit the nail squarely on the head!
( by the way i don't know if i have personally welcomed you, but it really is a pleasure to make your acquaintance, and welcome to the for-rum family, and thanks for jumping in with both feet!).

Well done, and thank you both for your brilliant, well measured responses.

[Matusalem]

Interesting thread. My only input would be the same as usual. Drink and buy what you enjoy. Avoid everything else. Fairly simple.
cheers.gif

[Edward Hamilton]

Before I close this thread, something I have done less than a handful of times in almost two years, I would like to direct your attention to the words directly below the Ministry of Rum logo.

This forum and website are dedicated to the understanding and appreciation of my favorite spirit. Rum is the most diverse distilled spirit in the world. It is precisely this diversity that has drawn many of us to this spirit. Unlike whisk(e)y, scotch, cognac or armagnac, rum has been made in numerous countries for more than 3 centuries. And it is this diversity that makes the adoption and enforcement of rules, regulations and restrictions nearly if not impossible to implement.

As the rum industry matures, limited editions of single-cask rums with labels documenting their production are on the horizon. But no rum maker can pay the bills with even a few highly specialized products. The mainstay of every distillers business is and will continue to be those products that they have been making and selling to their core consumers for years.

While the internet connects us and permeates our lives, most rum distillers have continued to do what they've been doing for generations, making rum. The Ministry of Rum was founded to bring the most reliable information possible to consumers. In 1995, I could not have imagined that thousands of rum lovers around the world could communicate limited only by the speed at which we can type.


Today, it is generally accepted among spirits industry experts that rum drinkers are the second most-educated spirits imbibers, second only to single-malt drinkers. The growth of rum consumption around the world has accelerated for more than a decade and I expect this trend to continue. And with this growth, will come unscrupulous marketers, hucksters and profiteers looking to cash in on what they consider to be the latest trend, most often with other people's money.

But more importantly, for the faithful readers of this website, this is a place to exchange information and tasting notes and raise the collective knowledge of sugar cane spirits. As this forum surpasses the 20,000 post count with more than 30,300 unique visitors in January 2009, I feel more responsibility to make this the most credible resource for rum lovers around the world.

Participation in this free forum is voluntary for members and the people who make the spirits we consume. This is not a place to discredit distillers or forum members because they have chosen not to participate in this forum or give you all of the information you want, when you want it. I look forward to your continued participation.